Curse

TomD22 · Oct 12, 2005, 09:35 PM // 21:35

I just had a thought (after PvP-ing in the tombs for a while). Although there are times when one team will completely own the other, often, matches can be quite evenly balanced for a while. In these circumstances, it often seems to come down to who is most successfully able to res. For instance, i lost a match earlier which had otherwise been totally even, simply because we ran out of res sigs. Following that, i made sure at least one person had vengeance in each party.

But in the light of how important ressing is in a tough fight, i had an idea. At the moment, getting your monk back on his/her feet after the opposition takes them down can be the tipping point between winning and losing. Likewise, how well anyone in the team gets ressed, as lots of people will need to be in the course of a battle can make a bit difference to how the battle goes for you.

Despite the importance of timely ressing, it seems to be a bit haphazard in most of the groups i have played in. Everyone brings a res sig, and whoever happens to see the death first tends to use theirs.

Considering this, i actually thought that a dedicated resser might be quite a good idea. Presumably this would be a warrior, to increase the likelihood of them being alive to res. They would carry as many sigs as they could, plus Resurrect (monk secondary), Vengeance, and i believe there's a mass-ress version of vengeance, although i forget what it is called.

Bringing a person back obviously couteracts all the hard work and energy the enemy put into killing them, plus which it keeps the firepower level of your team up. Facing an enemy that just kept ressing would be very debilitating. I think therefore that the loss of one character's other utility / damage would be entirely offset by these benefits, and the fact that other people could focus on their roles and not worry about ressing.

Has this been done before? Does it sound like a good idea?

Other thoughts: obviously, getting interrupted is a big problem. Mesmer fast-cast could help, but mesmers tend to be targets, so i thought a warrior would be better. Is there a skill which one can cast that stops one getting interrupted? Which profession does that come from? (obviously, hoping warrior). Also, if one puts lots of res-sigs on the bar, does that mean you get to use them all? Or does using one lock them all? And finally, other characters should also all carry res-sig, still, or the number of resses available would not be much greater. But their res-sigs would be saved for turning really bad situations around.

Sharpsight · Oct 12, 2005, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Sorry to be contrary, but I don't think a dedicated resser is a good idea at all. At the very least, a prot monk would be more useful in keeping people alive, or a healer to keep them topped up.

Taking a resser takes up a spot that could be a damage dealer, utility character or monk.

A typical 'mixed' build will have 3-4 damage dealers, 1-2 utility characters, and 2-3 monks (usually 2 healers and 1 prot). If you aren't running three monks, you may want to try that.

Rico Carridan · Oct 12, 2005, 10:09 PM // 22:09

If you want to take a dedicated resser, I agree, get a protection monk. Have them take Vengeance/Divine Intervention for instant full resses, then just load up on normal protection spells like reversal of fortune, shielding hands etc. IMHO, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to have more than 1 res on any character. Alternately, you can have an E/Mo type character do ressing. Take glyph of concentration (instant casting on next spell) or whatever glyph prevents disruption with restore life. You could combine this with a warder build to help keep the E/Mo out of trouble if you really wanted to.

As a note on vengeance, if you aren't using divine intervention or some equivalent counter, it is my experience that this spell will ALWAYS run out at the worst possible time, and that since vengeance has a very long recharge time, the player will end up staying dead for awhile unless someone else can true res them later. Unless your team knows exactly what is going on, don't use vengeance in PvP, I would say.

Rico

Ollj · Oct 13, 2005, 08:02 AM // 08:02

A dedicated resser with more than 1,5 res skills just doesnt work.
The unyielding aura elite vengeance res skill kiunda makes you a dedicated resser, in a funny way.
You can use Echo (mesmer elite), than use your res signet, and than the echoed res signet.
there are 2 mesmer stances and one elementalist glyph that prevent interruption.

Schorny · Oct 13, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

If someone died, something went wrong.

Therefore it is not good to have someone who simply backs you up. That won't win you fights. This slot is better spend on an active character that either supports offense or defense.

Trying not to die works better than ressing fast.

Eonwe · Oct 13, 2005, 11:49 AM // 11:49

No, it isn't a good idea.

jesh · Oct 13, 2005, 07:40 PM // 19:40

Side note- use wary stance when resing on a warrior.

Racthoh · Oct 13, 2005, 08:18 PM // 20:18

Bring in a dedicated resser could work, however having a character around that doesn't do anything is kinda useless.

I'd say go N/Mo, blood and protection. You could use Order of Pain/Vampire, Dark Fury, and Aegis so that no matter where you are you can be doing some good. Then load up Restore Life, Ressurect, Vengeance with Divine Intervention.

qwe4rty · Oct 14, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Bring in a dedicated resser could work, however having a character around that doesn't do anything is kinda useless.

I'd say go N/Mo, blood and protection. You could use Order of Pain/Vampire, Dark Fury, and Aegis so that no matter where you are you can be doing some good. Then load up Restore Life, Ressurect, Vengeance with Divine Intervention.

Most of that sonds good, but 3 ways to rez? Personally, I would have a Me/Mo bring EITHER restore life (more hp/mana then ne other rez spell, but touch range) OR resurrect (ranged rez, but w/ not much hp)

Make sure the Mes has some skill pts into fast casting

Personally, I would bring restore life just so the person doesnt die automatically after being rezzed

Siliconwafer · Oct 14, 2005, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Frankly, I think that if a team goes through 5 res signets with the customary three monks, there is perhaps more of a problem with either the teams offence or defence (or, perhaps, both).

In reference to the OP's scenario, consider this: what if you had ressed? I assume you had gone through the five signets that your non-healer/prots should have. That means five people have died. Take a dedicated res? You would be bringing people back with a huge DP, which I think would just prolong a lost battle.

Using a whole character devoted to ressing (using the OP's suggestion, a warrior) would take a massive chunk out of the team's offensive capacity. If you can't kill the enemy, then they will, eventually be able to kill you-and then the dedicated resser would come in. Res the dead person. With a DP. Yet you still can't kill them because your damage output isn't high enough. More DP. I played in a 20-minute tombs match against a very good team, and we ended up dying beacuse of a lack of sigs. But even if we had had a dedicated resser (or even a huge amount of sigs), I don't think we could have recovered beacuse you're put at a disadvantage simply by dying. And no amount of ressing alone is going to negate that disadvantage.

Perhaps, if someone creates a full 8-character build with a dedicated resser that can shell out enough damage and be balanced enough to take on most other builds, I'll be convinced. But for now, I think it's not a good idea.

=HT=Ingram · Oct 14, 2005, 12:16 PM // 12:16

yea. remember to prioritize, and not waste time as a monk trying to res a player not essential to the build. That's for someone else in the group to do when clear. You res as a LAST resort... (out of Signets)

Also try to know your heal abilities well... You don't need everyone at 100% all the time. manage your energy well and make sure you are not wasting healing power on someone that only needed a little bit to top them off.
That was a mistake I made in the past quite often... Now I hit em when they are around 45% and get them healed back to 100% for just 5 energy... without wasting anything... Generally speaking the healer monk should be focusing on the radar and the party window. that's about it. Protection monks focus on party and battle strategies. everyone else focus on targets and support defense...

kawaii_bat · Oct 14, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico Carridan

there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to have more than 1 res on any character.
Rico

How about interupts + multiple fallen members as a reasons to bring 2 types of res?
I would recommend any protection monk or healing monk to bring one normal type res (resurection) and Vengeance or Unyielding aura (unless you're bringing a different Elite)
__________________________________________________ _________

Resurection spells-Pros and cons

Restore life-While a dedicated healer can bring someone with half their life and 80% of their energy, Restrore life requires the person to actually touch the corpse.
This is very obvious to other PvPers who will very likely be able to stop you before hand. You'll also most likely have to get closer to your ennemy than you would like too (or that is wise to do) when resurecting warriors.

Rebirth-This let's you teleport a fallen member to safety but consumes *all* of your energy. This is much more useful in PvE than in PvP. The loss of energy is much more important than the teleporting properties of the skill.

Light of Dwayna- Lets you res many fallen members at the same time yet costs alot of energy.
While bringing back multiple party members might be really tempting and incredibly cool, the chances that:
A-Multiple party members will die at the same spot,
B-Multiple party members *are* dead and
C-You'll be able to heal all of them with the remainder of you energy before they are killed again or you are killed.
***************Is slim at best. *****************
Either way it's your choice. If your party is aware that you have this spell they might be more willing to pay attention to how/where/when they die and a possible startegy can be played out.

Resurection-This is the one that everyone uses and frankly I find the most convenient. Good energy cost, casting time, recharge. The only think I don't like about it is the health and energy recovery that it permit to the resed player. But other than that very nice.

Resurection signet-It's one time use is offset by it's speed and effectiveness. Every non-monk player should bring it in PvP if they can help it (And I know many agree with this statement).
__________________________________________________ __
Vengeance- for 30 seconds one of your party member is resurected full health and energy, when he dies he doesn't get DP. The only thing that you need to fear are enchantment removers. This is a good quicky res when your team is in a pickle. It's a life saver in some situations but leads to disaster if it's removed at a unconvenient time. This skill buys you time and let's you res 2 people if you brought another res.

Unyielding aura- Like vengeance but permanent until removed or unkempt. This can be somewhat better and/or somewhat riskier. On one side it's permanent until you stop upkeeping it or it's removed. On the other it's an elite slot, you can forget you have it on and enchantment removers can become even deadlier in the later case. But for an Elite resurection type spell this is a very good skill since you *do* have the choice and power to unkempt it.

A word to the wise using Unyielding: Once your team has the upper hand de-spell it and properly raise the player, this prevents untimely deaths due to enchantment removals. Don't keep it up unecessarily, this can potentially end up in a bad gamble.
__________________________________________________

While I do think a dedicated res character would be interesting (just to see if it actually helps out). They don't bring more utility to the party than... say a good protection healer with the resurection skill and/or res signet would.

***If anyone has a particular opinion please give it but don't flame. I'll edit and modify depending on the good points and arguments I get***

Guizzy · Oct 14, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

I am not aware of how it's done, but I often see groups looking for Me/Mo "Res-bots" in Tombs channel, so your idea might already be popular.

As long as it's also got a few useful all-around spells along with it's ressurection (it shouldn't need more than 2), I can't see how that would be a bad idea. Could save a slot on the characters that are usually too busy to ressurect (like Monks; if people start dying, you shouldn't have the time to ressurect).

But as I said; there has to be a way for the resser to have something to do when no one's dead yet.

Plus, there are some maps where the resser is less useful: HoH, for instance.

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 14, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eonwe

No, it isn't a good idea.

Short, swift, and to the point. I agree. I say that if your team needs more than 4 res sigs, [hell, I only want to join teams who'll bring only 3 res sigs in an 8v8 fight and no more than 2 in a TA] you're just setting yourself up literally with the mindset you're going to lose...
you're going to lose...
you're going to lose...

Teams with only a few res sigs I've discovered usually has a MUCH harder push for winning a game, whereas teams where EVERYONE carries a res sig is pretty much not taking it seriously because, "hey, there's 7 more sigs, no prob if I die..." mindset exists.

I'd love to find a team of people who consider themselves soooo skilled as to NEVER bring a res sig into a fight. Why? Because the healer is good enough and the team moves properly enough that a res sig only hampers them. Not impossible, improbable...

rii · Oct 14, 2005, 03:52 PM // 15:52

You can make a pretty much standard hammer, sword, or axe warrior and take res sig without denting your efficiency..... taking 3 is about right.... maybe 4, but only if you really need it, or, as I do, simply have the room since youve streamlined your build to less than 8 skills -.-

NekoZ · Oct 14, 2005, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomD22

Other thoughts: obviously, getting interrupted is a big problem. Mesmer fast-cast could help, but mesmers tend to be targets, so i thought a warrior would be better. Is there a skill which one can cast that stops one getting interrupted? Which profession does that come from?

Mantra of Resolve. Mesmer.

smurfhunter · Oct 14, 2005, 08:34 PM // 20:34

its a bad idea, since you basically acknowledge that your team cannot make a flawless victory.

but, if you really really really really wanted to, get a me/mo and have him fastcast the reses.

Hippie Crack · Oct 15, 2005, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Dust Trap
Flame Trap
Spike Trap
Serpents Quickness
Throw Dirt
Vengeance
Divine Intervention
Holy Veil

Put holy veil on the ressed target so you can have atleast some chance to interupt any enchant strips with spike trap's AoE knockdown untill the ressed party member gets permed. Traps + Throw dirt gives some utiliy while serpents makes the non-DP res's more available.

You could also pull this off on a ward/obsid flame ele using glyph of renewal on vengeance and divine intervention.

If you had a char with more than 1 skill(sig) dedicated to ressing, would you still want everyone else to carry their sigs still?